Curse

Tullzinski · Feb 26, 2010, 06:57 PM // 18:57

I can fix this once and for all:
Bring back Ursan then every class will be equal again. Give everyone Slayer of All. One buff for everyone one time all done no more skill balancing needed. Test Krewe can go home, Live Team can go work on GW2.

All fixed

chaosincarnate87 · Feb 26, 2010, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lithril Ashwalker

what i dont understand is that Anet "made every famring eltie equal" when in fact i can only do shitty 26 dmg max even with BuH or asura scan...even with fing holy dmg i cant farm unded, they only take 26 dmg... and they are supposed to take DOUBLE dmg if its holy. shadow form sins can already get hit by attacks+interupted with Dshot, isnt that enough to screw us over, i mean sins are supposed to get in deal craploads of dmg and get out fast. how can we do that if we dont really deal dmg. its basically wanding things to death. 26...26...26.. boring! everyone else can solo famr, how the hell can we! warrios took over Raptor farming...flame flame flame ....flame more...

umm... if you're really wanding THAT much as a caster class... you probably arent playing the class properly to begin with. and raptor farming IMO is still easier on an ele than a warrior, and slightly more entertaining.

reaper with no name · Feb 26, 2010, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Dervish have pretty much one elite, which is for energy. The single build is basically attacks and attack buffs from pve skills.

Which has always been outclassed by Enduring Scythe, which just got a huge buff in the form of Fear Me, making the class even more redundant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tullzinski

I can fix this once and for all:
Bring back Ursan then every class will be equal again. Give everyone Slayer of All. One buff for everyone one time all done no more skill balancing needed. Test Krewe can go home, Live Team can go work on GW2.

All fixed

You are aware that due to the fact that Ursan removed most (but not all) class mechanics, it made certain classes completely redundant, removing all purpose in playing about half the classes in the game, right?

Compare that to right now, where we have one class that is completely useless (dervish) and a couple of classes that are almost completely useless (mesmer, etc).

Yeah, I'd prefer the current situation if I had to choose, thank you very much.

The-Bigz · Feb 26, 2010, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tullzinski

I can fix this once and for all:
Bring back Ursan then every class will be equal again. Give everyone Slayer of All. One buff for everyone one time all done no more skill balancing needed. Test Krewe can go home, Live Team can go work on GW2.

All fixed

/sign

This post may have been sarcasm, but its truth. Epic shitters will continue to be epic shitters with rigged wiki builds until the end of time. Bringing back Ursan and allowing people that WANT to plow through the game while still leaving other options open for people that enjoy working hard and casual PvE'rs that will still be able to run their own set builds souns like an epic win, as retarded as that sounds.

drkn · Feb 26, 2010, 07:58 PM // 19:58

please refer here for all mesmer problems (in pve) in one massive post.
it's not about being able to finish the game. especially with heroes.

englitdaudelin · Feb 26, 2010, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

Even without Cons, FC is pretty much useless. Unless you're sticking to mesmer skills (silly you!) which seem to have disproportionately long cast times just because FC exists.

Gawd yes. Two-second and three-second casts? Practically into Meteor Shower territory there. And 9-10 FC gets you what, about a 30-35% reduction in casting time?

FireWhale · Feb 26, 2010, 09:06 PM // 21:06

When I see someone complain about a class, it's usually because they are expecting something different than what is given. I learned this lesson when I tried to transition to war from sin. Warriors are not sins and have specific pros and cons that are unique to the class. Since I really love my war, I decided to start anew and try to build my own builds and figure out what works and what doesn't. I am now comfortable with playing both my sin and my war.

Specific to mesmers, my mesmer is my second main (as my sin has reached gwamm). I'll just say whether I agree with your assessment.

1. Yeah I would never try an e-denial build. pve battles don't last long enough for e-denial to be useful. Interruptions are useful in key situations, but I would never focus a build on it. Instead I would throw one or two interrupts into a more useful build. I would not agree that hexes are easily strippable, except for destroyer of thoughts and jade brotherhood. I can easily put out enough hexes on most pve mobs to make a useful difference. And FC helps me put out those hexes at a reasonable rate. Can't say I play in a group much. I usually only play if requested on a certain build (and since I have all profs geared and ready, groups usually require a different profession).

2. I wouldn't say FC is the worst attribute. Maybe for the spells in it, but I would say mysticism needs a workover more than mesmers. Strength is also kind of lackluster, but I'm pretty sure I'll get lynched for suggesting it (my reasoning behind strength is that in hm, the majority of damage comes from armor ignoring damage...save crit scythe sins or something). Either way,as I said before, FC allows a mesmer to pump out hexes and spells at a rate that will overcome the shortcomings of the spells.

3. I don't have energy problems. A well-placed Auspicious or p-drain (yes I do interrupt in hm. you just have to be careful about what mob you're trying to interrupt) along with blood ritual support makes energy really a non-issue. Even without power drain, I don't have problems. There's a reason the inspiration line has such powerful energy management. Mesmers use a lot of it. I basically sling spells the entire time of a battle. It's a lot better than a roj monk, that's for sure.

4. mesmers can deal damage through a VoR build or spread conditions using a FD build. I think 2 powerful options are fine, considering what I do with other profs. With an ele, I generally use air primarily. Earth and Fire get used sometimes, but they are lesser. ER is cool, but I don't use it much. Sin generally uses scythe and daggers (although a hammer build might be very interesting now. oh right no stonefist nvm).

I get your point though. There's really no deviation or potential for synergy among mesmer builds.

5. Finally, no one can vor or empathy like a mesmer can. Spiteful is comparable, but mesmers are much better at reactive hexing. ib reactive hexing sucks. I don't want this to devolve into that debate, but reactive hexing works for me. It plays differently than my AP necro, but it tears through mobs just the same. Probably because I use the reactive hexes as extremely good pressure while I spam Pain inverter, cop, and evas.

My own thoughts:
I definitely agree with the overabundance of "useless" skills in the mesmer profession. For damage, I only run a VoR/Empathy/CoP build since it does put out a lot of damage if used right. I cannot find a good illusion pve build focused on damage (the problem is that if it's a good condition, you want it to stay. However, fragility does not like long lasting conditions. If only fragility triggered on reapplication of conditions...course I think damage might need to be nerfed just a little to account for the massive damage boost). However, I can take on my air ele mentality and just focus on spreading conditions. With the new skill changes, I think there are a lot of options available.

The Josip · Feb 26, 2010, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireWhale

There's a reason the inspiration line has such powerful energy management.

In reality, Inspiration line is weak when it comes to e-gain and has been nerfed 1 million times last several years. Fact. If you say inspiration has such powerful e-gain skills, you obviously decided on purpose to neglect Ether Renewal and GoLE, insane Rt e-gain skills especially after this last update, necro e-gain (soul reaping and SoLS), etc. It's not that Lyssa's Aura is a bad skill, it's good, but really, it greatly limits your build, and gets you much less energy than e-gain skills of other classes. Lyssa's Aura vs Ether Renewal? Right.

What caster has worse e-gain? Only monks, traditionally.

Quote:

I only run a VoR/Empathy/CoP build since it does put out a lot of damage if used right.

The major problem I see from posts like yours is that ANet will read your post and say "ah see finally someone who can play a mesmer - I told you class was fine."

In reality, that "a lot of damage" build of yours "if played right" deals 3x less damage and everything than some 'played right' builds of other professions. Heck, that damage build of yours deals 2x less damage than AP EVAS spammer mesmer build.

Quote:

Profession: W/E

My point exactly.

BlackSephir · Feb 26, 2010, 09:58 PM // 21:58

I don't care if your definition of "buff" is different from mine or not.
BS like eles being practically useless (if they want to do, you know, elementalist stuff) in HM is stupid and should be taken care of.
C'mon, load up your favourite fire/light/water build on an ele and go hm. See if monsters care when all they see are 0s.

FireWhale · Feb 26, 2010, 10:34 PM // 22:34

1. My mesmer build goes through mobs just the same as other builds I use with all of my other classes. If you would like to tag along I suppose that could be arranged. I can play a mesmer just fine and efficiently. I did note that I would like some more variance with my builds. I think a lot of mesmer skills are just not suitable for the pve environment.

2. I like how you stack the energy argument subtlety. My original point, the fact that I don't have energy problems while spell spamming, is still entirely true. I'll address your other point, though for what reason I'm not sure. Spirit siphon works just great for the Rt. That's their e management. Necro's soul reaping is theirs. GoLe is comparable to Auspicious (and I prefer auspicious, but they are pretty much equal). Lyssa's is an elite and a pretty bad one anyhow.

I suppose if your intent is to show me that inspiration is not a powerful energy management line, well I guess you did. However, that's a poor rebuttal to my statement "I don't have energy problems".

2. I'm sorry, I thought the fact that I told you what my main and secondary main was, you would believe me. Let me get some pictures.

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/5128/gw001.jpg
http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/4589/gw002gg.jpg
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/1551/gw003il.jpg

note that the warrior is 4 years old while my mesmer is less than a year old. I figured that I should have my oldest char represent me. I however, do not play her as much as my mesmer. my sin is obviously my main, but is done now.

shoyon456 · Feb 26, 2010, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Its not that we need a buff because one class can't complete the game (although Dervs are epic fail in high-end PvE AND PvP). The problem is really that we need a comprehensive skill balance that allows dervs/mesmers unique skills and potential to get into groups. The fact is that unless you really know what you're doing you won't be able to go into FoW/UW/DoA HM with 3 heroes and yourself and get far (and I admit even having GWAMM I cannot do this). Try getting a serious group with a derv in UW/FoW/DoA HM. It can be done, but if theres a warrior/sin/etc... there, then guess who can do the same thing as your derv but better, and who you just got dropped from the group for?

Show me where the derv's role in a pvp/pve group can't be done exactly the same way, except better by Sin/Ranger/Warrior/even Rit or whose spot couldn't be utilized by something better and I'll show you a happy gwguru member.

FireWhale · Feb 27, 2010, 12:35 AM // 00:35

^that is very true. I do not even try to get into those groups with "undesirable" profs. I have one of each prof except paragon (no offense, I love paragons and would love to have one. I just think that it's not worth dropping 10 dollars for), so I wouldn't have a problem getting into a group as I can fulfill any role they might want. However, I understand many people do not have the luxury of having multiple profs due to time or interest issues.

It'd be great if anet could come up with clever interesting uses for each prof (much like they did when they came up with primary attribute lines) that all have a role in high end pvp. Sadly, I bet it's extremely hard to make sure everything stays balanced :/

Phaern Majes · Feb 27, 2010, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Aye, this isn't about being underpowered or not. Yes it is possible for Mesmers to do everything any other class can do. But can they do it as fast or even half as well as other classes? No.

So how bout this instead of buffing mesmers Anet should nerf every other class instead. Really you say "don't play the class if it isn't as good"? Playing those classes can be loads of fun, they just aren't effective. I love playing paragons, but it sucks that they aren't half as good as other classes. Why should I stop playing them when I enjoy them so much? Why should I stop asking them to be buffed when they are underpowered compared to other classes? If something I love playing is underpowered it is only natural that I advocate them getting buffed. This concept seems to be something people fail to understand.

Playing necros, warriors, ritualists, elementalists, monks, dervishes, and assassins can be straight up boring at times. Button mashing anyone? But mesmers and paragons have so much potential and can be loads of fun to play, so why would I stop asking for them to be buffed enough to keep up with these boring ass classes? There have been hundreds of ideas for making Mesmers a competent class and still allowing them to remain unique and fun to play. Yet those suggestions go by the wayside. People just don't get it....

Cuilan · Feb 27, 2010, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireWhale

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/5128/gw001.jpg

I'm assuming you're not maintaining Visions of Regret with AI and Arcane Echo. Regardless, you have 42 energy and only one energy skill. The build does not party hard.

FireWhale · Feb 27, 2010, 02:47 AM // 02:47

oh course not. AI+Arcane echo echos whatever is most useful, whether it's EVAS or PI. AI can also be used on other skills too.

oh and I said "along with blood ritual support makes energy really a non-issue." Please read my posts more carefully. And still, if you want to see me in action send me a pm.

edit: well it definitely wasn't a great showing, but I did do tahnnakai hm 7/8. Cuilan pointed out I had an overabundance of healing/prot. I didn't find that odd, but apparently that's out of the ordinary. It's pretty necessary when you have no physicals.

Time wasn't great (26 mins), but that's my fault (I was not using the right skills on the right foes). I just want to put it out there that if you play my build and find it drab or boring, I don't hold it against you. I actually enjoy playing the build and I guess my mindset is what makes me able to. I know the build I have can be effective (or explode when you don't play right. Raisu destroyed me).

Honestly Cuilan, if you want to rip into me, that's fine. Honest opinions would help further this discussion.

PS. Of course, my major qualm is that a lot of the skills are useless.

The Drunkard · Feb 27, 2010, 06:15 AM // 06:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireWhale

1. Yeah I would never try an e-denial build. pve battles don't last long enough for e-denial to be useful.

e-denial is useless not because it isn't useful, but because monsters have so much energy it's almost imposible to take them all the way down, save for the visages.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireWhale

2. I wouldn't say FC is the worst attribute. Maybe for the spells in it, but I would say mysticism needs a workover more than mesmers. Strength is also kind of lackluster, but I'm pretty sure I'll get lynched for suggesting it (my reasoning behind strength is that in hm, the majority of damage comes from armor ignoring damage...save crit scythe sins or something). Either way,as I said before, FC allows a mesmer to pump out hexes and spells at a rate that will overcome the shortcomings of the spells.

The long recharges for the skills means that you can either unload your build quickly and then be useless for the next 20 seconds or balance out skill usage, which makes it redundant in Pve. FC is a Pvp attribute.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireWhale

4. mesmers can deal damage through a VoR build or spread conditions using a FD build. I think 2 powerful options are fine, considering what I do with other profs. With an ele, I generally use air primarily. Earth and Fire get used sometimes, but they are lesser. ER is cool, but I don't use it much. Sin generally uses scythe and daggers (although a hammer build might be very interesting now. oh right no stonefist nvm).

Sadly those two along with pve skill spam is pretty much the way to go for mesmers nowadays. The entire illusion line is trash for non-farming purposes, with the exception of inepitude, FD, and IoP. I would love to see Anet give a little more creativity to a mesmer's build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireWhale

5. Finally, no one can vor or empathy like a mesmer can. Spiteful is comparable, but mesmers are much better at reactive hexing. ib reactive hexing sucks. I don't want this to devolve into that debate, but reactive hexing works for me. It plays differently than my AP necro, but it tears through mobs just the same. Probably because I use the reactive hexes as extremely good pressure while I spam Pain inverter, cop, and evas.

You are right in that reactive hexing is sucessful when your team is specced into damage mitigation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireWhale

However, fragility does not like long lasting conditions. If only fragility triggered on reapplication of conditions...course I think damage might need to be nerfed just a little to account for the massive damage boost). However, I can take on my air ele mentality and just focus on spreading conditions. With the new skill changes, I think there are a lot of options available.

Try hypochondria.

FireWhale · Feb 27, 2010, 08:57 AM // 08:57

hey wow. I didn't know about that bug at all! I suppose with FD it would just spread them all back again. If only the recharge was lower, that'd make for a really fun chain.

draxynnic · Feb 27, 2010, 09:26 AM // 09:26

Personally, I don't particularly care if professions get buffed or nerfed as long as there is some credible attempt to keep it even (without paving it over with bears). Right now, there are some big potholes around the Mesmer and Dervish parts of the field (and smaller ones scattered around elsewhere, although to be fair the update probably has filled some of those in a bit).

Sure, there are builds that a Mesmer can use - the AP assassinspammer, the mandragor-inna-can build - but even these are arguably more effective with a necromancer primary, and the necromancer has so many other options!

Otherwise, unless there's something in particular that can be exploited by one of the wide variety of highly situational skills that the Mesmer is loaded with, I often find these days that it can be hard to fill out a Mesmer build without resorting to "best of a bad lot" options, even with three PvE slots. (Heroes are ironically, easier, since they actually do have a snowball's chance in hell of successfully interrupting in hardmode.)

These days, what's supposed to be the primary role of the Mesmer - shutdown - is better done in PvE by Rangers, Elementalists, and Necromancers, especially against groups. Heck, even a Warrior can beat a Mesmer when it comes to shutting down a mob, once it gets close enough. With VoR/Empathy - I've always found the SS Necro does a better job there, and SS isn't even necessarily the best elite for a Curses Necro.

drkn · Feb 27, 2010, 09:46 AM // 09:46

Quote:

When I see someone complain about a class, it's usually because they are expecting something different than what is given.

i don't really know about the others, but the problem with mesmer is that all the expectations were based on official sources. as i said - please change the manuscripts and explicitly note on wiki what is mesmer's state in end-game so that newcomers will already know what to expect.

Quote:

There's a reason the inspiration line has such powerful energy management. Mesmers use a lot of it.

take a look here. mesmers use a lot of it, while other classes benefit from their e-management without the need to use is.

Quote:

mesmers can deal damage through a VoR build or spread conditions using a FD build. I think 2 powerful options are fine, considering what I do with other profs.

it was fine back before VoR got nerfed. mesmers are hexers dealing indirect damage. heavy hexers. nerfing their synergy in hexes severely wounded one of the useful options.

Quote:

Finally, no one can vor or empathy like a mesmer can. Spiteful is comparable, but mesmers are much better at reactive hexing.

as far as it comes to reactive hexing, PI killed the idea of domination hexer through punishment. now EVERY profession can deal higher damage through a source that was reserved only for mesmers in the beginning.
as for VoR vs SS - while they may be comparable on the paper, look at possible synergies. for instance, just compare echo VoR with echo SS. not to mention that hexing someone already having VoR with empathy cuts the damage a lot.

and sorry for repeating the link all the time, over and over, but i think that it's useful to preview it:
please refer here for all mesmer problems (in pve) in one massive post.

i've briefly played a dervish. not to a level of dervish players, sure, so don't take my words too seriously, but i'm a person that has to see the problem with his own eyes.
i think that their main and foremost concern is being inferior with scythe. pumping their abilities a bit and nerfing scythe sins/wars would help them a lot.
second issue is about their primairy attribute. as the game teaches us, your primairy is either broken or useless, with the first option coming directly out of the second - if all of them were broken, none really would stand out. mysticism just ain't synergised or useful enough, have no great skills apart of avatars.

as for paragon, i've completed some parts of the game with it. created it also to see what the rant about paras is about.
as long as i see it, they are just limited to one build. run imbagon or bb. the point is that imbagon is essentially useful in a lot of locations. the issue: it becomes boring and being limited ain't feel good in a game like this.
they are limited by warrior's tactics a lot. it's pretty obvious for me that Protect Yourselves!, Charge! and other shouts should be in paragon's skill pool. heck, i think that SY! would have been paragon's if paras were released before kurzick skills.
to help paragons, warriors should be scaled - tactics shouldn't be buffed as it was done two days ago, but redesigned. it should help the warrior and only him - should be changed to 'his tactic in combat' rather than 'party-wide tactic'. then move all party-wide beneficial skills to paragon and rebalance them after that.
also the spear skills should be easier to synergise. X skill needs Y condition on a foe to inflict Z condition. or do any other bonus. you either have to rely on your condition-heavy party or inflict those conditions yourself, essentially wasting several slots. it reminds me of sin skill chains, but with spear it's... weird. and inefficient. also a balanced skill making the next 1...3 para's spear attack skills AoE (yes, i know about splinter weapon) or changing favorable winds to affect spears would boost them a lot.
i know that i lack pure ideas here, but i'm not an expert about warriors or paragons and don't know every skill by heart.

Desert Rose · Feb 27, 2010, 10:47 AM // 10:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaern Majes

So how bout this instead of buffing mesmers Anet should nerf every other class instead.

Yes, with defensive skills like Enfeebling Blood and "Save Yourselves!" there's hardly a need for other defensive skills, and physicals can deal so much damage that pretty much any form of shutdown is obsolete.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

heck, i think that SY! would have been paragon's if paras were released before kurzick skills.

October 27, 2006: Nightfall was released.
June 15, 2007: PvE Skills were introduced